Technical another HPFP over drive way for the cars can not run VTT kits

doublespaces

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Curious if you've installed a VTT shotgun? Not for the average joe from what I've heard (I own one, but haven't done it yet).

Filippo

It is definitely not A.J. work simply because there are quite a few steps and places to go wrong, however it is not pulling an engine either. In my opinion its a 6 out of 10 in difficulty scale where most of it is patience to get it right. In my case that meant making my own hoses and lines.
 

TSRfast

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I am doing a bunch of work on my 335xi and found some oil leaks on the vacuum pump hose to the brake booster. I got the rebuild kit. Then found out in a perfect world there is a tool to remove the Vacuum pump cover. I suspect its possible to get it out and replace without the tool. It did make me think of this exact same idea. With a 335xi I cannot use the shotgun. I have looked a a few ways to get it to work with remounting it on top with the Alternator mounts.

My question with making the Vacuum pump sprocket smaller... how do you access this area of the engine? IN pictures it seems like the cover is part of the block and the head and the oil pan would have to come off to get proper access.

I had a 1999 Saab 9-3 that was very modded. These engines cam with a very redundant balance shaft that was chain driven in a very similar way. The plastic Guides were known to fail around 150k-200k miles.. so a lot of guys would remove the chain with the engine in the car. by cutting or drilling the rivets on the chain links then with a coat hanger rotate the engine so the chain would come out.

I agree this is like heart surgery on an expensive complex engine. However, I also would be willing to work with you to come up with a way to get this to work.

The key is can you safely remove the chain links without taking the engine apart and who is going to make the smaller sprocket and a master type link that could be installed with the chain in the engine. And also someone to figure out all the math in making this work.. How many links to take out of the chain. And how hard is it to remove links in the chain.


Or another solution would be to chain the geometry of the chain guides or tension-er so it can take up the slack of a smaller gear.

I know this seems like a lot of work given how simple the shotgun is. However, In California with the strict nature of the emissions visual inspection.. Its getting ard to pass the test with anything that does not look stock.

I really find the idea of a secondary injector system hacky. I know people get it to work but given I use a full flash tune (not piggy back) now I would have to have both systems.. and the complexity of not always having access to E85... Makes me want to find a way to get this to work.

James
 

kayzrx82

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I am doing a bunch of work on my 335xi and found some oil leaks on the vacuum pump hose to the brake booster. I got the rebuild kit. Then found out in a perfect world there is a tool to remove the Vacuum pump cover. I suspect its possible to get it out and replace without the tool. It did make me think of this exact same idea. With a 335xi I cannot use the shotgun. I have looked a a few ways to get it to work with remounting it on top with the Alternator mounts.

My question with making the Vacuum pump sprocket smaller... how do you access this area of the engine? IN pictures it seems like the cover is part of the block and the head and the oil pan would have to come off to get proper access.

I had a 1999 Saab 9-3 that was very modded. These engines cam with a very redundant balance shaft that was chain driven in a very similar way. The plastic Guides were known to fail around 150k-200k miles.. so a lot of guys would remove the chain with the engine in the car. by cutting or drilling the rivets on the chain links then with a coat hanger rotate the engine so the chain would come out.

I agree this is like heart surgery on an expensive complex engine. However, I also would be willing to work with you to come up with a way to get this to work.

The key is can you safely remove the chain links without taking the engine apart and who is going to make the smaller sprocket and a master type link that could be installed with the chain in the engine. And also someone to figure out all the math in making this work.. How many links to take out of the chain. And how hard is it to remove links in the chain.


Or another solution would be to chain the geometry of the chain guides or tension-er so it can take up the slack of a smaller gear.

I know this seems like a lot of work given how simple the shotgun is. However, In California with the strict nature of the emissions visual inspection.. Its getting ard to pass the test with anything that does not look stock.

I really find the idea of a secondary injector system hacky. I know people get it to work but given I use a full flash tune (not piggy back) now I would have to have both systems.. and the complexity of not always having access to E85... Makes me want to find a way to get this to work.

James


Making the sprocket smaller is doable. I believe frankenturbo on Facebook did this a while back. He ordered a shorter chain from the manufacturer and had a custom sprocket made to overdrive the pump. I'm not sure how well the vacuum pump will like those speeds. Removing the chain will require dropping the pan, pulling the valve cover off and hub to remove the cassette that holds the chain and tensioner in place. It's a serious undertaking and is doable but I'm not sure about doing this once you take into consideration the cost and labor involved.
 

TSRfast

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Yes I looked at this. The major bummer is the 335xi oil pan is part of the drive train and a major PIA to get off. Unless we can come up with a way to remove links without taking out the cassette. see the pictures i found.
chainandguides.JPG
chainpicture.JPG
 
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kayzrx82

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The problem with using an electric motor is the rpm of the motor needs to be held at a fixed ratio to engine rpm If you want to use the stock pump with it's control valve to control fuel flow properly. If it's held at a constant rpm , at lower engine speeds or lower demand, it will have to bypass alot of fuel leading to heat . The bypass strategy and metering needs to be reconfigured for a constant rpm pump. A variable volume pump would be better for a constant rpm setup.

If you wanted to replace the current chain driven hpfp and run it with a motor, the hp needed to run the pump at a given rpm and pressure can be calculated using the hydraulic hp equation. But thats theoretical and doesn't take into account efficency of the pump and losses in the motor. Also keep in mind the duty cycle of the pump will affect the size of the motor. Ex. starter motors (decent power to weigth. But a very short duty cycle). The shaft hp needed to drive the stock pump at 3000 psi and enough flow for 320 hp is a little under 1.5 hp. Again not exact but just to give you an idea that's a little over 1.1kw. At 12v and 100 percent conversion to shaft hp from the motor ( not possible ) that's 93 amps. Take into account inefficiencies your well over 100 amps. The alternator would need to be upgraded for that load and the battery as well.

If it's a supplemental pump in parallel with with the stock one, the wattage needed to drive the pump is going to depend on alot more factors ( target hp, target rail pressure, duty cycle, efficiency, etc) . Either way alot of things need to be considered with an electric driven pump. You can start to see why mechanical drives have a serious advantage over electric when it comes to transfering energy. This is also why mechanical fuel pumps are almost necessary for large hp applications.
 
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TSRfast

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I dont think that the vacuum pump being over driven is that big of a deal. I would suspect it quickly reaches max Vacuum. Maybe adding some type of pressure or vacuum relief valve in the line may help if this is an issue at all. I know it sounds a little hacky or scary to remove chain links. If someone can order one and or find an old one to do some research with... Their maybe a master link that is out there already that would work with this. I think the access cover is large enough with the sproket out. and a safe way to secure the chain so it does not drop down into the oil pain when cut.. this is possible if we all get our engineering minds to work.

I also think its more simple and more stock than the shotgun that only works on some cars.
 

TSRfast

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There are two N54 HPFP solutions coming to market this year that will work with x-drive. Don't worry :)
really do tell....... Is this with relocating the HPFP to the top of the engine>? I thought of this also.
 

TSRfast

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Another issue I see in making the sprocket smaller is the angle that the chain hits the guides. Its super close in the stock set up if you make that gear 30-50% smaller the chain guide really may have to be modified also.
 

kayzrx82

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I dont think that the vacuum pump being over driven is that big of a deal. I would suspect it quickly reaches max Vacuum. Maybe adding some type of pressure or vacuum relief valve in the line may help if this is an issue at all. I know it sounds a little hacky or scary to remove chain links. If someone can order one and or find an old one to do some research with... Their maybe a master link that is out there already that would work with this. I think the access cover is large enough with the sproket out. and a safe way to secure the chain so it does not drop down into the oil pain when cut.. this is possible if we all get our engineering minds to work.

I also think its more simple and more stock than the shotgun that only works on some cars.

It not so much the vacuum pressure thats the issue. Its the type of pump it is. Its a sliding vane pump. Given it lubricated very well it may be fine but im sure the manufacturer has a max rpm rating that pump can run up to. I deal with all sorts of pumps and do abuse testing on them all the time at work. RPM shortens the life of a pump and the trend isnt linear, it generally follows an exponential trend.
 
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scrllock

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There are two N54 HPFP solutions coming to market this year that will work with x-drive. Don't worry :)

A vendor that's not m18 or spool claims to have one coming out too, but I've no idea how it will stack up to those. Hopefully MHD will support everything.
 
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TSRfast

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A vendor that's not m18 or spool claims to have one coming out too, but I've no idea how it will stack up to those. Hopefully MHD will support everything.
I will hang in there. but that is still very cryptic.... why is it such a secret? would think that anyone doing this would want the word out. I get that it maybe some time and details are not all worked out but I have been on hold with stock turbos as I feel the benefit of upgrading the turbos is mostly a waste if you dont increase fueling. In CA our emissions testing makes it risking to have secondary fuel rail. Probably would not be noticed but its getting harder
 

fmorelli

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I will hang in there. but that is still very cryptic.... why is it such a secret? would think that anyone doing this would want the word out.
We've been talking publicly about one of the solutions being developed, through a group of people on Spoolstreet, for the last six months. There is an HPFP development thread - you can search. The second solution, Helix, there was a thread in the last several weeks here. Again you can search. Most people that hang around here know about both of these, because they have been common discussion - so not cryptic but rather common knowledge here.

Filippo
 
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Torgus

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There are two N54 HPFP solutions coming to market this year that will work with x-drive. Don't worry :)

The more the merrier! It's always nice for customers to have multiple choices. Be interesting to learn the + & - of each.
 

yuli8466

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for more and more problems in HELIX OD, I think my design is a good way : reduce the gear:

If we recuded this gear (red arrow) to 2/3 size, we would get a 50% increase of pump speed. for support, we should reduce the length of the oil pump chain and modify the chain tensioner steel as the blue arrow.

there is no more vaccum pump crack.

but you need to open the engines.... hahahah